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Open Thread: Stand By Me
| I have been gathering up a lot of info on a variety of subject so I thought an open thread might be a good place to put it.
What's everybody else been up to? It's been kinda quiet around here lately. What's on you mind? What have you been reading? What are you listening to? Let's hear form you.
|
Enjoy!
Comments
Joe Bageant is in good form.
Joe Bageant is in good form. Coincidentaly his latest piece talks of the cultural conditioning we have been discussing lately and also addresses what I believe to be some of the aspects of God that Tsisageya asks about.
Here's a teaser-
"The purpose of life is to know this. (You'll have to read the article to find out, now!) Einstein glimpsed it. Lao-Tzu knew it. So did St. Francis. But you and I are not supposed to. It would shatter the revered, digitized, super-sized, utterly meaningless hologram."
I think I'd go a little further than you, McJ, and say that God permeates us all. God permeates us because we have life. Life, though we experience it all around us, escapes scientific examination. We see and experience the effects of it but where is it? What is it? What exactly is missing in a cadaver that was there when the person was alive? What has left?
To me, life comes from outside the physical reality and therefore, presumably, from God. If this is so, then we are experiencing God directly in being alive. Also, if this is so, then God is experiencing us very directly, including all our pain, and so is, indeed, closer than our heartbeat. Life is such a miracle, isn't it?
Joe Bageant
I'd tried to access his site (from Smirking Chimp, I believe) but couldn't get there from there. Thanks James. I loved every word of it.
I must read it again and ponder it some more. There's much food for thought.
Your comment has me thinking, as well. Life...
Oh, and speaking practically,
this is quite eye-opening. It really speaks to America's unquestioned conditioning in a big way.
http://www.alternet.org/environment/134650/the_startling_effects_of_goin...
statistics
Those statistics are eye opening and interesting how small changes by individuals could make such a huge impact to the well being of the planet.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
Wow, fantastic article.
Wow, fantastic article. Thanks for posting the link James and thanks for "going a little further than me" re: my comment- I totally agree with what you said.
"The purpose of life is to know this...the animating spirit of the earth is real and within us and claimable."
I love this - it is what I was striving for in that brief comment on the other thread. What I called divine mood would be the animating spirit or the godliness that permeates all of us and everything that is. It is not something we need to look for outside of ourselves it is indeed as you say, closer than our heartbeat.
I would be interested in anyone thoughts on how 'evil' exists. If God permeates us all, does evil come from one rejecting an orientation towards this 'animating spirit'?
Hope that makes sense.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
I think that's it exactly, McJ.
If God permeates us all, does evil come from one rejecting an orientation towards this 'animating spirit'?
I might add that, after awhile, there comes a point of no return---or forgiveness, if you will. I mean if a living being rejects/destroys life itself, then wouldn't that lead to death, hence, separation from God?
Makes sense to me.
On the other hand, there's Jesus. Now I'm confused.
entropy
"I mean if a living being rejects/destroys life itself..."
I think this is what we call entropy.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
"I think this is what we call entropy."
Yes! And again, YES!! That is why the philosophy of Dualism doesn't work.
Not only is Destruction (darkness) dependent on Creation (light) (and therefore cannot be equal because Creation has no dependence on Desttruction) but crucially, as you say, McJ, Destruction or the rejection life must eventually destroy itself by its own nature.
I hope I'm making sense. I've been up all night ....... reading blogs!
But James,
I think Creation IS dependent on destruction. Isn't it? Kind of? Until all is bliss, that is.
Entropy and destruction
To make something out of nothing is true creation and this is God's realm. There is no destruction involved. To make things out of something else may be "creative" but it is also "destructive" of the raw materials involved. This process is really transformation and this is our realm. The Destruction I was refering to in the comment above is that which aims to lay waste whatever it is aimed at. It is the acting out of the rebellion against life and creation that McJ mentioned. It is wilfull. It is this wilfullness that makes this sort of destruction "evil".
I wouldn't call death that is part of a life regeneration system destruction. And to bring in entropy, a tree that dies in a forest undergoes entropy in that its complexity when alive is now collapsing into increasing less complex states i.e. decay. But the forrest continues in a state of homeostasis or even perhaps increasing complexity that might be called evolution. The critical consideration is that it is doing so in accordance with its own nature. (As opposed to clear felling it which would be destruction and nothing to do with the forrests nature.) There is no force or violence involved as in, for instance, a human hierarchical society. Which I would say is in a state of entropy even if it continues to stand up because of the increasing amounts of external force require to maintain it. The force is required (in the form of coercion from the legal , education, economic and religious systems) to keep it functioning and preventing it devolving (entropy) according to its (human) nature into something smaller and more human scale. Humans are designed to co-operate through free will and will naturally resist in all sorts of ways being dominated. I am (mis)using the term "entropy" here in a popular sense and definitely not scientific sense.
This is rather impromptu and I hope it makes sense. I find it interesting to note that entropy (decreasing complexity) applies to things that have on life or are dying. Life tends to increasing complexity.
Yes, quite.
However, I would contend that Life rather tends toward simplicity rather than complexity. On the other hand, I could be wrong.
darn good James!
Well that is pretty darn good for an impromptu explanation from a tired guy. My nights reading is just starting and I'm just starting to get my brain in gear and here we are discussing entropy. I better sharpen up!
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
Thanks, McJ
You raised some excellent points about life and evil earlier which I would like to respond to but a little later (I need to get my ducks all in a row!). They go to the heart of things, I think. It all relates to the next essay I'm avoiding writing
After reading Joe Bageant's article, I thought, "Bewdy (Oz slang), that lets me off the hook". But he doesn't address evil. Yeah some sleep would be nice and thinking about evil is not conducive to it for some reason!
lining up your ducks
I look forward to it and I like how you line up your ducks. Get some z-z-z-'s the evil ain't going anywhere, anytime soon.
Good news is, I think, that because of the law of entropy it will destroy itself.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
woops
"because of the law of entropy it will destroy itself. "
you already said that
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
Re woops
Did I say that? Sounds deep
Gotta go!
I would add that many people
I would add that many people take the apparent duality of life and death within a physical system (where it deminstrably applies) and then apply it to the "cosmic" system of "good" vs "evil", Satan vs God where it definitely does not apply because of this one-way dependence I mentioned previously.
I was just thinking that!
I was just thinking that! It's kinda what I was trying to say in the "therefore" comment below.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
Don't make me
go all Twisty on your asses!
Breathe deeply, guys.
http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/
Yes you make sense
Yes, that makes sense!
Now look who is not sleeping.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
Entropy
Interesting, but rather tedious to my brain. I like poetry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
on entropy
Well, entropy is a big, big subject.
I don't pretend to know much about it. It is the second law of thermodynamics. It is the 'law of disorder' which simply put means that within a closed or isolated system everything is moving towards disorder (or for our purposes here - destruction). The first law of thermodynamics is the law of conservation of energy and it says that energy can be transformed from one form to another but it can neither be created or destroyed.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
Frankly,
I've tried to understand physics since time began. It mostly makes me angry.
Yet, I seem to have a fondness for it.
Therefore...
Therefore, I think that means you need to be out of the dualistic (closed system) in order to understand what's going on down here.
Isn't that what the dot in the Yin/Yang symbol is all about.
I would also say that entropy to me would symbolize the descent from God.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
Food for thought.
Fine then.
And anyway,
2-1=1
One. Is there really any such thing as 1?
Great. Now we're into numbers. Wonderful. Who cares?
what is missing
"What exactly is missing in a cadaver that was there when the person was alive? What has left? "
This is such a good questions! If you have ever watched someone or something die you can't help but be forever moved by the experience. For me, this has happened in 'no time' in that one moment there is life and in that same moment life is gone. It is very confounding experience to contemplate. I would also say for me, what strikes me the most is their eyes. I think it is true what they say that the eyes are the windows to the soul because at the moment death comes the soul or spirit is no longer looking through that particular set of physical eyes and you know it.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
Playing for Change
I LOVE this! I did see Mark Johnson with Bill Moyers just after I 'discovered' this Stand By Me video. Wow. I laughed, I cried, I rejoiced.
Just awesome. (But is it still part of Joe Bageant's hologram?)
Telling it like it is re: the banksters
Max Keiser talking truth about Goldman Sachs and the other banksters.
"This is a preplanned financial holocaust by financial terrorists and I think if Bin Laden was running the central banks in America he would be doing a much better job and less damage".
"...you gotta take all these bankers into a room and prosecute under...anti racketeering laws because that's what we are talking about, a racket between bankers in Washington, bankers on Wall Street, bankers around the world..."
===============================================================================
William Black on the Journal with Bill Moyers. A must see for understanding what is going on in the financial crisis.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html
"BILL MOYERS:
For months now, revelations of the wholesale greed and blatant transgressions of Wall Street have reminded us that "The Best Way to Rob a Bank Is to Own One." In fact, the man you're about to meet wrote a book with just that title. It was based upon his experience as a tough regulator during one of the darkest chapters in our financial history: the savings and loan scandal in the late 1980s.
WILLIAM K. BLACK: These numbers as large as they are, vastly understate the problem of fraud.
...
BILL MOYERS: I was taken with your candor at the conference here in New York to hear you say that this crisis we're going through, this economic and financial meltdown is driven by fraud. What's your definition of fraud?
WILLIAM K. BLACK: Fraud is deceit. And the essence of fraud is, "I create trust in you, and then I betray that trust, and get you to give me something of value." And as a result, there's no more effective acid against trust than fraud, especially fraud by top elites, and that's what we have.
BILL MOYERS: In your book, you make it clear that calculated dishonesty by people in charge is at the heart of most large corporate failures and scandals, including, of course, the S&L, but is that true? Is that what you're saying here, that it was in the boardrooms and the CEO offices where this fraud began?
WILLIAM K. BLACK: Absolutely.
BILL MOYERS: How did they do it? What do you mean?
WILLIAM K. BLACK: Well, the way that you do it is to make really bad loans, because they pay better. Then you grow extremely rapidly, in other words, you're a Ponzi-like scheme. And the third thing you do is we call it leverage. That just means borrowing a lot of money, and the combination creates a situation where you have guaranteed record profits in the early years. That makes you rich, through the bonuses that modern executive compensation has produced. It also makes it inevitable that there's going to be a disaster down the road.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
Re Bedtime Story
Thanks very much, Tsisageya, for the link to Arthur's prescient article Bedtime Story. I had read it but had forgotten it. It offers hope, does it not? Regarding how to get there, I think the most important thing to do is adopt the attitude that these psychopaths that lead us have no power unless we contribute to them and their systems. I have maintained for many years that the only way to deal with psychopaths is to NOT deal with them. You walk away or if they are blocking your path, then find some way to go around them i.e. start your own systems, for instance. If you absolutely have to deal with them, then do so as minimally as possible and look for a way out in the meantime.
I have made some concrete suggestions here and here
But it is all fundamentally a psychological battle for control of your mind. Turn off the teevee, walk away from it and you are half way there already.
Well,
it doesn't appear quite yet that we can simply ignore them (psychopaths, that is). But if we could just extract ourselves from beneath their crushing weight. Change our spending habits, perhaps?
Like don't eat fucking chicken for a ONE FUCKING DAY. Let's start there.
(Sorry. I get emotional.)
Well,
it doesn't appear quite yet that we can simply ignore them (psychopaths, that is). But if we could just extract ourselves from beneath their crushing weight. Change our spending habits, perhaps?
Like don't eat fucking chicken for a ONE FUCKING DAY. Let's start there.
(Sorry. I get emotional.)
"But it is all fundamentally
"But it is all fundamentally a psychological battle for control of your mind. Turn off the teevee, walk away from it and you are half way there already."
To the above I should have added for clarity, "And from this improved mental state, the correct answers are much more likely to present themselves. If you've ever been in an abusive relationship (and who hasn't?!), you will know that it was much easier to recognise what was going wrong and what you should have done about it AFTER you removed yourself from it and had time to readjust your mind and thinking without the fear and stress. Whew!"
Dearest James,
How shall I put this? I gave up on TV ages ago after reading Jerry Mander's book, Four Arguments For The Elimination Of Television.
Then again, I'm rather old.
Good for you, Tsisageya
You'll have to pardon me. It's a soapbox of mine.
I understand perfectly.
I understand perfectly.
I think I understand better now,
about the Open Thread and all. Please excuse my unknowing bad manners. Perhaps my comments in the other one seemed to depart from Winter's subject matter and be off-topic. Perish the thought that I would ever try to hijack a thread. It's just that his subject matter sends my thoughts to unexpected places and I can't help but put in my two cents. I'll try to be more sensitive. Sheesh! Computer manners!
Thanks for being so nice to me about it. Or am I making a mountain out of a mole hill? Am I scrutinizing too closely? I'm guilty of that sometimes.
I wouldn't worry about it.
I wouldn't worry about it. It started to look like the discussion was going to be ongoing so I thought I'd manipulate the situation(!) and move it here to have it all in one place as I could see everything was sorta related
Open Thread
Music
http://uncensoredarabwomanblues.blogspot.com/2009/03/just-old-iraqi-song...
Actually,
having heard Playing For Change---Stand By Me---I can die happy.
Perfection.
Oh crap!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6inwzOooXRU
since its an open thread...
since it's an open thread, I don't know where most people live, but here things are going crazy. At least in the world as defined by the mainstream news and most of the progressive news sources as well. We are getting an avalanche of bullshit. For some reason the binary post-neocon worldview is hotter than ever over the ocean as well. It's like American movies, we get them 5 years later but boy do we get them. True, these globalizaded lies have been working on people for many years, but it has never been as intense and far-reaching as it is today. The overall spin is reaching new heights. Factal truth, justice and free speech are close to becoming archaic concepts. The New Truth is endless repetition, massive occupation of the media space and every politician in the world repeating the same words every day, every hour.. Inquiries, independant supervision, free discussions, demonstrations, all of this has been banished for good and not just in the land of the free. This is the "change we can believe in". Even Denmark is sending lots of troops to Afghanistan. The G20 was a great occasion to recruit new cannon fodder, through unfulfillable promises, flattery or threats.
maybe it's just me, but I feel we're reached a new plateau of unanimous insanity. I really don't like this new consensus on everything...and every ambitious left-leaning politician in Europe is busy trying to become the next Obama. There's no hope coming from the official world for the next 20 years at least. Even the word "change" has been forever tainted, ruined like "freedom" and "peace". 1984 was about words disappearing from the dictionary, in this case it's words losing their meaning and being recycled as weapons of war.
it's not just you Cryptic
"maybe it's just me, but I feel we're reached a new plateau of unanimous insanity"
It's not just you!! I don't know where you are but I am in Canada and I can relate to what you are saying about 5 years later. It seems like we in Canada are now going thru the same descent into insane thinking that we all watched the US go thru post 911. It's a deja vu nightmare. The PTB's, media etc. don't even bother to wrap the crap they spew in any sort of truth.
"The New Truth is endless repetition, massive occupation of the media space and every politician in the world repeating the same words every day, every hour...it's words losing their meaning and being recycled as weapons of war"
Yes, exactly - very good!
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
From the mouth of a psychopath
From the mouth of a psychopath - jeebus!!
Berlusconi: Italy earthquake victims should view experience as camping weekend
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/08/italy-earthquake-berlusconi
"Berlusconi made the remark during an interview with a German television channel as he visited one of the emergency camps set up to cater for people who have lost their homes in the disaster.
The quake, which devastated the city of L'Aquila and surrounding towns and villages, has now claimed 260 lives.
Berlusconi told the reporter for the N-TV channel that the homeless quake victims "lacked nothing".
"They have medicaments. They have hot food. They have shelter for the night," he said.
"Of course, their current lodgings are a bit temporary. But they should see it like a weekend of camping.""
I wonder how much he'd enjoy that 'camping weekend'.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
Caught out
Yes, having no conscience means they have no real empathy. They are able to cover this in most social situations by observing what others say and and copying them. They can sound very convincing. But every now and then they slip up and display their attitudes and natures to those with ears to hear. They're like children who tell sexual jokes they don't understand; they expose the the fact that don't know what they are talking about and are aware of that yet knowingly behaving as if they do. And it is all there to see . . . if you have eyes to see (to sorta repeat myself).
Berlusconi's remarks remind me very much of Barbara Bush's remarks about the Katrina survivors and for the same reasons.
let them eat cake
Berlusconi's remarks remind me very much of Barbara Bush's remarks about the Katrina survivors and for the same reasons.
Ya exactly - Let them eat cake.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
from the mouth of someone who has had enough
And from the mouth of someone who has had enough ...
District Judge Emmet Sullivan is not amused
http://media.mcclatchydc.com/smedia/2009/04/06/19/Taylor-batarfi.source....
P R O C E E D I N G S
COURTROOM DEPUTY: Please remain seated and come to order.
Civil action 05-409, Aymen Batarfi versus Donald Rumsfeld, et al.
[...]
THE COURT: I want to talk for a few minutes before I get responses from counsel.
[...]
[...] until this information was revealed, the government was moving forward with the merits determination on April the 6th where it was again asking this Court to find that Dr. Batarfi should continue to be detained as a, quote, "enemy combatant." End quote.
To hide, and I don't use that word loosely, to hide relevant and exculpatory evidence from counsel and from the Court under any circumstances, particularly here where there is no other means to discover this information and where the stakes are so very high and due indeed include indefinite detention, is fundamentally unjust, outrageous, and will not be tolerated. [...]
In the face of repeated failures to comply with this Court's orders, to produce exculpatory evidence, even after orders to show cause and the requirement of no fewer than four declarations from officials at the highest levels of our government, how can this Court have any confidence whatsoever in the United States government to comply with its obligations and to be truthful to the Court?
The parties have asked this Court to stay the merits determination scheduled for April the 6th and the 7th in view of the government's determination that Dr. Batarfi is cleared for release and to allow the government to, quote, "initiate," end quote, the diplomatic process related to his transfer.
While the Court on the one hand applauds the government's belated decision to transfer Dr. Batarfi, the Court must note the disturbing pattern in this and other cases.
Time and again we have seen that only once finally pressed to present evidence to justify a petitioner's detention does the United States belatedly, quote, "withdraw," end quote, charges or allegations and/or transfer the detainee.
Dr. Batarfi's ill. No one disputes that. [...]
This Court wants to ensure that his case does not yet again return to a state of limbo [...]
The Court will therefore require a status report in 14 days and every 14 days thereafter and expects to hear that this matter has been resolved or that significant progress has been made.
Now, let me just say this: It was a tremendous effort on this Court's part in moving other matters from this Court's calendar to afford Dr. Batarfi his fair day in court on April the 6th and April the 7th, and now being told at the eleventh hour, which appears to be fairly customary for the United States these days, that he'll be repatriated or returned to his country of origin or another country, my time is very precious, it's more precious than the time of the attorneys at the Department of Justice, I can assure of you that.
And I don't take very lightly a suggestion at the eleventh hour, especially after this man has been detained without due process for seven years, that this Court's effort to afford him his fair and appropriate day in court are for naught.
I'm not going to let this case drag on, or any of the other cases on my calendar, indefinitely while the government embarks on what it calls its diplomatic process because I have seen in the past that that diplomatic process can indeed span months and years, and I have some serious concerns as to whether it's yet and still another ploy not to return Dr. Batarfi to his country of origin but to continue with his deprivation of his fair day in court, and I'm concerned about that so I want status reports every 14 days.
I will not extend the time for those status reports, and if I don't see that there's progress in returning not only Dr. Batarfi but anyone else on my calendar who's been cleared for return, then I'm scheduling a merits determination, and at the least at this level in this judicial process affords that detainee, whether it be Dr. Batarfi or anyone else, his fair day in court.
I'm not going to continue to tolerate indefinite delay on the part of the United States government.
I mean, this Guantanamo issue is a travesty.
It ranks up there with the [internment] of Japanese American citizens years ago.
It's a horror story in the American system of jurisprudence, and quite frankly, I'm not going to buy into an extended indefinite delay of this man's stay at Guantanamo, or anyone else on my calendar.
[...]
This is barbaric treatment of this man without any regard to his rights whatsoever and I'm not going to be a part of it.
I'm not going to sit back and just scrutinize some progress reports every two months and say I guess the diplomatic efforts are unwinding, again, slowly but surely.
I have no doubt that at some point in time he'll be returned somewhere. Hope springs eternal. Counsel, I'm just not going to do it.
[...]
I've spent a heck of a lot of time putting this case in a posture, fighting with government attorneys, dealing with the failures of the government to produce exculpatory evidence, and now we have more failures to produce exculpatory evidence and someone's going to pay a price for that, for not having disclosed that document that everyone knows is exculpatory, and the sanction is going to be high.
I'll tell you quite frankly if I have to start incarcerating people to get my point across I'm going to start at the top, I'm not going to start at the bottom. I'm going to start at the top.
MR. WARDEN: Understood, your Honor. [...]
[...]
THE COURT: [..] I am really concerned about that. I am very disturbed.
MR. WARDEN: Understand, your Honor.
THE COURT: And that's putting it mildly, counsel.
MR. WARDEN: I understand.
THE COURT: I am really upset [...]
[...]
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
thanks McJ
-NJT
glad to know there's at least one decent-hearted honest-sounding man in the judiciary
I'll join you in that bounce
I'll join you in that bounce. At least it is a little good news.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
Yes,
God/dess forbid there be at least one decent-heartd, honest- sounding WOMAN in the judiciary!
You guys surely jest, right?
Wow, this judge is on a
Wow, this judge is on a roll! He's gonna need some protection. It's unfortunate this means Stevens get to slide.
"Sullivan said today that he would commence criminal contempt proceedings against the original trial team and their supervisor, and appoint a non-government lawyer to prosecute the case.
That includes William Welch II, chief of the Justice Department's Public Integrity Section; Brenda Morris, his principal deputy chief and former lead prosecutor in the case, public integrity prosecutors Edward Sullivan and Nick Marsh; and Alaska-based assistant U.S. attorneys James Goeke and Joseph Bottini.
The judge said that "the interest of justice" he would appoint Henry Schuelke III, name partner at Janis, Schuelke & Wechsler, to investigate and prosecute team for violating court orders and potentially obstructing justice.
An outside appointment of an independent prosecutor under these circumstances where conflict of interest is raised is not uncommon, but from what I've heard it was not announced prior to today's proceedings which is a little unusual. That says the Judge was pissed by whatever was in documents he ordered DOJ to turnover regarding further misconduct allegations that Holder found so objectionable when he issued his indictment dismissal."
More at link:
http://christyhardinsmith.firedoglake.com/2009/04/07/restoring-integrity...
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
More from the mouths of psychopaths
The Iraqis didn't bitch about the collateral damage when we leveled Ramadi or Fallujah what's with them sissy Afghanis bitching about civilian deaths and injuries!!
This is just so very, very wrong...
From Think Progress:
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/02/20/knowing-where-we-stand-on-a...
"Indeed, the day before Perle denied the existence of neoconservatism, across town at the American Enterprise Institute a panel of neoconservatives was proposing its application to the war in Afghanistan. Insisting that “there’s no good reason to think that we can’t succeed in Afghanistan if we set our minds to it,” Fred Kagan noted one of the ways in which “Afghanistan is different from Iraq.”
To take this issue of civilian casualties, I’d like to make a note. If you compare the damage that is done in Afghan cities and villages and towns, and the number of civilians that are wounded or killed in coalition attacks to the sort of damage that was done in Iraqi cities and villages and towns, “order of magnitude” doesn’t begin to describe it. If anyone has seen pictures of Ramadi or Fallujah, they looked like Stalingrad. Not a single building standing. Streets filled with rubble. Cities absolutely crushed.
The interesting thing is that when we were fighting those battles and doing that damage, on the whole the Iraqis were not bitching about collateral damage. You had nothing like the degree of upset about how many civilians were being injured and how much damage was being done to the infrastructure in Iraq at a much higher level of destruction than you have in Afghanistan at a much lower level of destruction.
I think there’s a cultural reason for that: Afghans don’t fight in their cities. Iraqis do. For good or ill, Iraqis expect to fight in their cities. That’s where the insurgents dug in, Saddam Hussein planned to dig in to the cities or lure us into an urban fight. It’s sort of understood that the battlefield is going to be there, that doesn’t mean that they don’t complain about it, that doesn’t mean that it’s not a problem, but it does mean that when the insurgents dig in and we root them out, the Iraqis don’t on the whole say “darn it, you shouldn’t have blown up all of our houses.” They sort of accept that. Afghans do not.
Given that Fred Kagan previously referred to widespread sectarian cleansing in Iraq as a “myth,” it’s not so surprising that he would dismiss complaints about the killing and maiming of civilians and the rubbling of entire neighborhoods as “bitching.” And it really doesn’t even need to be pointed out that what Kagan means by “setting our minds to it” is “have the will to kill huge amounts of people in order to achieve our goals.”
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer traveling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
What's going on in Italy?
More from Berlusconi
‘Big Brother’ fears as Berlusconi tightens his grip on power
ITALY: Leader given almost absolute power over new right-wing groupFrom Philip Willan in Rome
http://www.sundayherald.com/international/shinternational/display.var.24...
"THE WORDS dictatorial - even Orwellian - are starting to be used in Italian political circles. Last week flamboyant prime minister Silvio Berlusconi moved to consolidate his control on the nation even as he glad-handed and posed in London at the G20 summit.
Hot on the heels of his triumphal unification of the parties of the Italian right, including some post-fascist groupings, Berlusconi began selecting the directors of state-run television - increasing his powerful grip over Italian society
...Control of the media, vast personal wealth and a stronger-than-ever political base mean the 73-year-old billionaire can look to the future with unbridled optimism.
...With unprecedented power and influence at his disposal, Berlusconi took the opportunity to complain that the constitution needed reforming because it gave too little real authority to the prime minister.
..."The general impression is that the PdL is born as a monarchy...," commented the historian Mario Cervi in an article for the weekly magazine Gente.
Opposition leader Antonio Di Pietro, a former Milan magistrate who investigated Berlusconi for corruption, went further, arguing that the prime minister was seeking the dictatorial powers invoked by members of the notorious P2 masonic lodge, of which Berlusconi was once a member.
Last week Italian newspapers published photographs of the prime minister as he addressed the packed and euphoric conference, a small figure with outstretched arms at the podium overshadowed by a second, enormous image of himself on the giant screen behind him. His critics said the overtones of George Orwell's "Big Brother" were all too plain. "
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer traveling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
the list gets longer...
Thanks for the article MCJ! So now the list for Europe goes (besides those who have already gone crazy) :
- France is going crazy
- Canada is going crazy
- Italy is going crazy
To answer your question MCJ, I'm in Switzerland. We are most influenced by France and Germany's zeitgeist (i.e. our media is pretty much in line with theirs). The media sure is powerful: they decide what people talk about in the morning, how they think...propaganda is more effective than ever it seems, maybe it's because it's laced with just enough racism and exceptionalism to kick in.
I would say Germany is well on its way, but I would have to do some research. They might even be sending soliders to Afghanistan, at this rate. And I don't know about Spain either. But since the G20 summit only revealed agreements, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that every country in Europe is on the imperialist bandwagon. Hell, if even Denmark wants to be the new mac on the block....[BTW: Kudos to the spinmeisters for the Mahomet caricature psy-op! Sounds like it was necessary to instill just enough hate before sending soldiers]
Everywhere, it gives me the feeling that our leaders have completely given up trying to pretend they represent us: never before have I seen such a blatant contempt for public opinion. Knowing quite a few Italians (and Canadians), it must be particularly hard on them, to have their country's image ruined beyond repair all around the world. I doubt such a situation can perdure without a violent reaction from the people (France and Italy being the most likely "rebels")
update: German troops in Afghanistan increased from 3800 to 4400 (ok there were already 3800...I'm slow, I can't keep up with all those betrayals of the people!) : http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/263224,german-leader-arrives-in-...
Cryptic
"I would say Germany is well on its way,"
I'd be interested to hear more about this. We don't get a whole lot of news about what goes in your neck of the woods...unless of course it's about those bank accounts you have in Switzerland.
"Knowing quite a few Italians (and Canadians), it must be particularly hard on them, to have their country's image ruined beyond repair all around the world. I doubt such a situation can perdure without a violent reaction from the people"
If it involves beer and a hockey game then you may see some violent reaction here in Canada otherwise, I'm not so sure.
"France and Italy being the most likely "rebels" "
I agree, the French in particular, seem to more willing to take organized action, protests, strikes etc.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer traveling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
Pope 'refraining' from a visit to Gaza
The grand poobah of the Catholic Church, da Pope, will be 'refraining' (his words) from visiting Gaza on his trip to the Holy Land. And don't try to convince him, he's just not going to go there! He'll be showing up at the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial and the Western (Wailing) Wall for photo-ops with a couple of Rabbis tho.
From Stuart Littlewood:
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m53417
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer traveling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
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